home edited ... Plants, Consciousness, and Transformation @ (Needs transcription, partially transcribed) Apri…(view changes)...Plants, Consciousness, and Transformation @ (Needs transcription, partially transcribed)
May 15 Memorial Day
The Timewave ‐ 'The Grammar Of Ecstasy ‐ The World Within The Word' [1 out of 2 recordings] (Transcribed by BOT; Needs Review 1)
Evolving Times edited Evolving Times Day Month 29 April 1995 Location, Sacramento, Sacramento, California De…(view changes)
Day Month1995 California
Original Transcription by: [Please enter yourname or usernamehere when you start transcribingso we know that it is being/hasbeen worked on by someone]
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Review 2 by [admin only]:
Permitting Smart People to Hope edited ... Meanwhile, three doors down the hall in the branch of things marked "Information Theory,&…(view changes)...Meanwhile, three doors down the hall in the branch of things marked "Information Theory," they're realizing that there is a way to analyze physics, so that what you get, what we call matter, is simply information in association with energy; that information associated with energy is matter. So then you go back to this other branch of understanding and they're saying that, uh, that information is non-local and then what that begins to sound like then is that matter also is non-local in some sense and if you could download that into a technology, you could walk from here to "Zevercanoobie" without ever going through high vacuum and that would be big news. Do you understand what I'm saying? [Audience: Rumbling] Good. Yes, it would be reasonable to ask a question at this point.[Audience: Laughter] [TM: Laughter]
Q. So how does the principle of non-locality come in to prove that you can determine position and velocity at the same time?
dodactic hedron [sp?],and so
Um, okay, so that was a little paean to David Bohm and then moving through that, um, and going further, Ilya Prigogine who has also been to Esalen and had an influence on many people who taught at Esalen and me among them although I was just sort of, like, sharpening his pencils at that stage who has already established his track record by winning the Nobel Prize for physics by destroying the second law of thermodynamics which was no small accomplishment believe me because there was no law of nature to emerge in the 18th -- in the 19 century more tenaciously believed in than the second law of thermodynamics and Prigogine just showed that, you know, it was a generally true statement of a rather complex situation in which actually sometimes it was bugged and he secured that mathematically. That was twenty years ago. Now Prigogine is coming forward with a theory that I modestly suggest sounds somewhat like my notion about time, that time is, first of all, not a construct of the human mind; it is, in fact, a property of the universe like energy, like matter. It's a "thang" [Audience: laughter] is what we're trying to say here. It's not an abstraction and this is not the first time science has had to make this leap, I mean, the curved field, the electromagnetic field was at first thought to be some kind of weird mathematical contortion you had to go through to understand electricity but couldn't possibly actually have anything to do with what it was and then it was realized, you know, that it was actually a point-for-point description. So, Prigogine is beginning to say that time is a thing and that therefore it has an arrow and that complexity is conserved as you approach the present which is what I've been saying year in and year out here for a while. I didn't call it complexity; I called it "novelty" and used Whitehead's vocabulary, but there is, you know, a very exciting convergence of intuition theory that seem really to hold the possibility of a whole new way of thinking about time and determinism and novelty and the, uh, the buildup of structure in time. Yeah.
Q: Your theory of novelty was that it was not conserved but increasing.
...Q. Do you think that anybody viewing "The Celestine Prophecy." What do you think about that? [Audience: Laughter]
TM: Well, you know O'Henry said, " Never read a book 'til it's five years old" [Audience: laughter] and I don't always follow his advice, but in the case of "The Celestine Prophecy," I have to ... I am kind of weird. I was very embarrassed, a couple of or a week ago I was in New York City and I was with some friends of mine are they're in a rock and roll band and they were on the Letterman show so I went with them to the Letterman show for the taping of the show. It was the Spin Doctors and I had never seen the Letterman show [Audience: laughter] so I kept thinking, "Is that Letterman?" The janitor would go by and I would 'cause" we were there an hour ahead of time and I was not au courant with these cultural icons. I wish the author of "The Celestine Prophesy," he, she, them or it, whoever it may be - a he - what I've been able to glean from the either about "The Celestine Prophesy" is that it is a species of, of, um, anticipatory, uh, visionary breakthrough, right? saying that the world is going change beyond our possibility of recognizing it. I think this is absolutely true.The details are where it gets tricky.
keylos [sp?]of the
So, then circa 1948, you're up to, you know, the Rigellians will come with enormous ships and advanced medical techniques and teach us how to clean up our Earth, to love one another and grow food from the sea and so forth and so on. It turns out that, no, that isn't it either and as we get closer, the amount of prophetistic, um, speculation is just going to grow exponentially because all the old systems of thought are failing and all the old systems of thought are capable of doing is denying the obvious which is that the Earth is on the brink of the greatest change since the end of the Mesozoic, you know, and -- but people don't like to think about that because all they can think about is, you know, the possibility of personal extinction. Technology, religion, psychedelic drugs, archaeology that could at any moment spew something out of the ground that could completely scramble everybody's notion of what really did go on or something and I'm not a "face on Mars" guy or some malarkey like that. Let me make that clear. But still, you have to be open to the fact that something might come along. What else do we want to say about that? Let me see if I've covered my list.
I think we were talking about the Nets and the Web. Uh, yeah, this collectivity that is coming into being, is coming into existence more rapidly than anyone can chart or clock or understand. Uh, you know, I have a protocol that goes on in the middle of the night and searches databases all over the world for key words of interest to me and when I get up in the morning, these files are just stacked on the screen ready to be gone through and, you know, it can be trivial, but it could be, you know, a heresy, a Greek Orthodox heresy of interest to fully a dozen people on the planet, and, you know, if the information is out there, the computer will eventually winnow and winnow and winnow because it is so tireless and so, and so deeply dedicated to my wishes. [Audience: Laughter] I mean, what else does it have to do? It doesn't know.
...The weird thing about western religion: Judaism, Christianity and Islam, and all the cults that they have spawned, is the insistence that God will enter history which is a crazy idea. That God will enter history at a given moment, it will be redeemed and the hell of toiling for our daily bread and the whole thing will somehow be made right by God's direct manifestation at a certain point and this idea finds just no support in the East so then when you ask about how these religious teachers relate to this technical thing, to me, the more interesting, um, relational approach to is through somebody like Teilhard de Chardin who I take as my direct inspiration. I never read de Chardin that carefully when he was hot, but since I've come out where I am about all of this I've looked back at it and he and I are in 100 per cent agreement except I go further. I say the date and he is crafty enough in his Jesuitical way to stay away from anything so likely to expose you to scorn and ridicule. But what he is saying in "The Phenomenon of Man" is that we are now generating what he calls the noosphere and the noosphere is the atmosphere of technical accretions on electronic information transfer and electromagnetic fields VHF, UHF, so forth and so on, and that this is part of evolution. His great insight was to see geology, biology and sociology as a continuous spectrum and, you know, well, McLuhan talked a lot about Teilhard de Chardin.
With McLuhan, you never knew whether he was being entirely serious or just going for the good line, but he maintained -- he said that the age of the Holy Ghost which was to occur immediately before the end of the world, that the age of the Holy Ghost, we had Edison to thank for it and that the spread of electricity around the world was the direct descent of the Holy Ghost and that as cities turned to oceans of electric light, he saw it as an epiphany of the third person of the trinity. This is an argument for keeping Catholics far from machinery and power; they're clearly screwballs of some sort.[Audience: Laughter]
We sequence the genome, the secrets of life and longevity are unfolded before us and then this final thing in the computer. I mean, the computer is the union of spirit and matter and, you know, five or six years ago you used to hear a lot of talk about how computers could never do all kinds of things and they were simply adding machines and this and that. Well, that's a kind of computer, but those voices have grown strangely muted as massive parallel processing and neuro maps and stuff like this. So, I don't know where all this stuff rests. You know, James Joyce said man will be dirigible which is like the flying saucer phase. I would like to think that the philosopher's stone is a suitable goal for human evolution, that we are actually downloading ourselves into a solid state realm where all that moves is ideas in a kind of electronic collectivity of mind and then the earth is left to itself. But how this is to be accomplished, I'm not sure. But on the other hand, it's not up to me. I mean, if you read people like Hans Moravec, his book. What's it called? "Mind Children: The Future of Machine and Human Intelligence" and there are ideas in there that's so bizarre and far out and yet, you know, being discussed by someone with a tenured position at Carnegie Mellon University that it -- all that really holds us back as these boundaries dissolve is our imagination. The difference between the psychedelic experience and history is that history is real and at the end of it, you're going to be able to stay there, wherever there is, if you want and do those things, and I think it's coming very, very quickly. Even the wildest things that we've said here today to save certain theoretical constructs such as time machines are now being talked about in the popular scientific press. There was an article about time travel three issues ago in Scientific American. So does anyone want to say anything? Yeah.
Q: Can you make a distinction between understanding/knowledge and consciousness or do you see those as one and the same thing?
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Tuesday, April 18
Poets and Prophesiers edited ... Pam Burton: Good afternoon. You're listening to KPFK Los Angeles at 90.7 FM. This is Pamela Bu…(view changes)...Pam Burton: Good afternoon. You're listening to KPFK Los Angeles at 90.7 FM. This is Pamela Burton for the Pacifica Radio Archive Hour, and many of you are familiar with my guest today, someone who we've presented on the Archive Hour, uh, often enough, and that's Terence McKenna, in town for an event that sounds like it's going to be truly interesting. And, uh, lots to talk about with you, Terence, especially because you predicted it. I know it's been a few years ago. This was going to be the week, this and last week, when a lot of events were going to be happening.
Terence McKenna: This is the hottest week of the 90's according to the Timewave. And, uh, I'm certainly living the prediction myself. I don't know about other people, but, uh, things feel pretty novel.
...are familiar but for...talked about chemicals and...this Timewave
PB: How was it you put that together?
slightof hand...would have- my accounting
TM: Basically what it predicts is roving balls of chaos [Pam giggles] moving through systemic order. So that helps in some areas and hinders in others but it's definitely a reshuffling of the deck. That's what's going on this week, and we'll be sorting out the changes for months.
PB: And in trying to get some, uh, material facts to me yesterday I had three fax machines go down, not one...
...TM: Uh, that's actually not my bailiwick. I have been keeping track of, of weird and novel events over the past 60, 70 days, and uh, just some highlights off the top of my head, uh 40, 40 billion new galaxies discovered, uh, three extra s- uh, solar planets discovered, that means planets around other stars, uh, the completion of the preliminary mapping of the human genome, the production of anti-matter, um, the discovery, the announcement that this large asteroid impact in Canada delivered enormous amounts of Buckminsterfullerine to the Earth's surface meaning that that's an organic molecule, therefore proving that uh, lots of organic material is delivered to the Earth from space. Uh, so in areas of deep scientific discovery, discoveries that will remake uh, human medicine, our model of the universe uh, and perhaps in the antimatter discovery, the ways we produce energy, all these things have occurred in this remarkably short period of time. Uh, there has not been what some people think of as massive novelty. China did not invade Taiwan and trigger World War II and you know, there were some similar other opportunities for old-style catastrophe that didn't happen. But you have to remember novelty is novelty. It's new more than catastrophic. I mean, catastrophes are in fact rather hum-drum. They come around all the time. Wars, cyclones, floods. What we're experiencing is the emergence of new kinds of connectivity and order in the human world, and uh, and then what we are experiencing as individuals if we're in resonance with the collective timewave is I think just wild fluctuations of, of opportunity, of debt and profit, of love and hate, of uh, you name it. [Terence laughs, PB Laughs]
PB: Now you're on this tour around the United States and I did get one of your brochures. I want you to tell the audience about what you're hoping to um, be able to bring people to on this all- um, 2-day weekend. Sounds like it could be kind of an intense time.
WellI'm very...on that? have been
Well,...Administration, and UCLA right...is it...
-Commons, that's right. And-
PB: And this is for Friday night. The actual weekend event is all scheduled at Paramount ranch. Correct?
inquirywe understand....federal bureaucrats
Original Transcription by: Eva Petakovic [IN PROGRESS]
Review 1 by: someone else
Monday, April 17
Shamanology edited ... In, in Colombia once I saw a graffiti, and it, my Spanish, I can't get it right. But what, it …(view changes)...In, in Colombia once I saw a graffiti, and it, my Spanish, I can't get it right. But what, it was, it was a picture of a mushroom, and it said "Without this you are not yourself." [Laughter]. So this is, you know, Arthur Koestler, I think it was in The Ghost in the Machine, said very clearly that he felt there was no hope for the human species without chemical intervention. That we cannot be the sharp fanged monkey, and the possessor of atomic weapons. And that we're going to have to chemically intervene to mute the monkey, uh, the monkey proclivities. And, uh, it may be true. But the, the depth of their influence upon us: our thought systems, language.
I hold the, the peculiar opinion that language preceded meaning, by millennia. That long before people could communicate, they discovered how interesting the small mouth noises were, and made them for each other as a form of entertainment, which then bifurcated into chanting and singing. But it was very late in this experiment in the small mouth noises, that someone got the idea that you could assign a meaning to certain mouth noise, and everybody would agree that that's what that noise meant, and then you could discuss things. So, you know, we're creatures of language and thought, and uh, probably because these drugs, these plants first kicked that over in us.
If you wanna go that way too, then you have to then get to: How did that being itself develop consciousness. But, uh, it's an interesting line but I don't think it would stop there where you want it to...
I said this earlier, but it's a point worth making again. It isn't culture that's changing and carrying everything with it. It's language that's changing, and it carries culture with it. Culture lags far behind. But the evolution of language is the evolution of reality. And this is a cliche but we, the challenge of the cliche is to make it operational, so that like God, when you utter a word, it becomes so. You know?
Um, you see, what do you reflect on in terms of the origins of the use of hallucinogens and that whole, you know, scheme of the sort of negative of it. You know, the, literally. When you're talking a great deal about the sort of evolutionary potentials. And I'm curious about, you know...
Well, uh, the only answer I can give is probably not a very good one. The forces of, uh... Let me put it a different way. The government gets to everything first. And, they have been at the problem you ask for 20 years with an amazing little success.
I worked for the Department of the Interior for a while. I can tell you why... [Laughter]
I was told, uh, that it was good in such a platonic sense, that you could only approach it if you were good. So that it was like ethical mercury. The grasping hand [audience laughter] would sign that it flowed right through it, and there was nothing left. But I may be God's fool, you know. That may be...[audience laughter]. Certainly we know the Nazis used scopolamine as a truth serum. Although now when you look at the damn scopolamine it's not very impressive. People don't, they lie as much as they tell the truth. So it's a little puzzling as to why. But it, definitely, uh...
Language [is called??] a truth serum.
Also I have to agree with what James calls the cognitive imperative. [??] happens because [inaudible]
And, uh, so a lot of other use of, all these things, may depend a great deal on what people believe happened.
And, my God, these computer networks where, as an example. A few years ago someone invented a device, this is an anecdote that will give you the idea. Someone invented a little device which looked like a ball point pen. And it was this small cybernetic device that could be programmed with a category. Like, let's say "stamp collector" or "sadomasochist". When you wore this pin, if you got near anyone else who was wearing a similar device programmed with the same word, your pin would begin flashing a little light. The notion was, that these things could be sold who hang out in singles bars, and would create a dimension neither public nor private. [Audience laughter] A new dimension, where people of similar interests could get together completely [audience laughter]. Isn't that interesting? And this thing had a range of 20 feet, OK? [Audience laughter] So now comes a thousand dollars worth of cybernetic equipment and the telephone, and it's the same device. It doesn't clip into your shirt pocket, but we've extended the range to include the entire planet.
End session @ 2:12:25
Original Transcription by: JohnDeeIsMe
Review 1 by:
Wednesday, April 12
Shamanology edited ... I think that we have to make a very reasoned case to the establishment, that the, um, that the…(view changes)...I think that we have to make a very reasoned case to the establishment, that the, um, that the psychedelic drugs have to be looked at in a non-hysterical manner, by experts. And we don't know who the experts are. They may not be pharmacologists. They may turn out to be linguists. Or they may turn out to be jugglers. But we have to recognize that what we're talking about when we're talking about the advancement of human evolution, is the evolution of the human mind. Uh, and these drugs, and, do..You know, before the argument was whether to be called a hallucinogen, or a psychedelic or an entheogen...They were just called consciousness-expanding drugs. And that really, as a phenomenological description, is more useful than these other things. They expand consciousness. Well, therefore, we should be really bearing down on them, because the problem is we don't have enough consciousness. And we don't know how to direct it, and sculpt it, and orient it toward our own salvation. So, we can't just take our mental states as "given", as somehow sacrosanct, and therefore not to be tampered with. We have to actually begin to engineer them. And Arthur Kessler has made the point that this is not big news, but there's some resistance to it. Again I think a, a, uh, recursion of dualism, in a more dangerous form. The dualism of the natural and the unnatural. Yoga is natural, drugs are unnatur...All these dichotomies, I mean. Who can argue with the notion that dualism is the root of all evil?
Uh, how can it be otherwise? [Audience laughter]
You mean the thing which is leading?
You know, I think it was in Mysterium Coniunctionis that Jung said, uh, the unconscious has a thousand ways of terminating a life that has become meaningless. A chilling notion. And what he meant was, you know, you'll step off a curb and be hit by a bus, cause you didn't look. But the real analysis is that a decision had been made at a higher control level to just fling you away. Well, how much more disturbing it is to think that that could be possible on a global level. So we have to open a dialogue, and no longer, you know, all these words: intuition, artistic vision, trance, uh, memes like poetry, these are all ways of trying to have a dialogue with the control mechanism. And the psychedelic drugs, especially psilocybin, I think lay that open. We need to have professional facilitators of dialogue. We need to understand who is speaking. We only now have possibilities, you know, that the voice that speaks on psilocybin is an out-and-out extraterrestrial, you know, with a, with its own history, its own evolutionary standards, et cetera. That it is what Jung would call an autonomous portion of the psyche that has slipped beyond the ego's control. Meaning, that you're crazy, or at least that you are experiencing a form of consciousness not validated by this society. Um....
I want to stick something in there too.
Well, this is the question "Is God mad?", you know? Are we living in a universe run by a mad god, where the choice for death could be made as easily as the choice for life. This is what the Gnostics of the Hellenistic era feared.
That isn't quite what I'm saying though, because I think the, yea, or a subordinate consciousness, but made up of all of us. So our individual decisions of consciousness I don't think are relevant to the totality.
...Well, I'll tell you, uh, [Terence laughs].... A few years ago, we bought, uh, 10 acres in Hawaii, and moved as many of these Peruvian drug plants as we could get, uh...[laughter]...in there. So that was four or five years ago. Now those plants are grown and hopefully the next time we go back to Hawaii, we'll be able to produce ayahuasca. We're calling it Hawayahuasca. [Audience laughter]
This relates to your question, which is "How can an exper, how can a group of people create an experimental context for doing these drugs with an eye toward making some kind of progress or, or getting something out of it"? And it's a real challenge. We were amazed when we went to Peru and began taking ayahuasca. We had never taken drugs with groups of 30 people, you know? We had either taken them, uh, alone or one or two people, or occasionally with 100,000 other people at a rock concert. But the notion of 30 or 40 it's very intense. And without a tradition, uh, it will be even more demanding. But it's important to do. The whole problem in psychedelic research is the, um, reluctance to have human subjects in the picture, you know? As soon as that begins happening, the institutions and the government, and people's wish to make careers rather than to actually do original work. A whole bunch of factors come into play that make it very, very frustrating. And yet, the LD50 in rats, the absolute structural determinations, the botany, the chemistry, the linguistic studies can only go so far with this stuff. The real thing is what does it do?
I think that, partly because in science, human experience isn't considered a valid subject of study. And so that's, you know, so people don't as those questions because, well, you can't quantitate it and you can't...
Why don't you get bold and get the mental health grant to do it?
I'll take the opportunity to thank you for, uh, doing what you're doing. The, I can't remember since sitting like this in India. Being so alive and fireworks going off, that..
Oh well thank you very much.
Hear! Hear! [Laughter]
Let me preface the question, um...From my own meditative experience, I feel like I'm just beginning to get to a point where I can feel how energy and stillness are both necessary. And, in, like the existential, phenomenological sense that they co-constitute one another. It cannot be one without the other. And, by energy I mean all its forms too, including Mind, as you, uh...for me was good to hear another way of saying that Mind, the idea of Mind from the [???] and yoga philosophy, that, and the reality that someone else feels is comforting. [Terence: "Mmhmm"] Including the intellectual stuff. All that form. In your experience with these cultures, these different cultures, is there a, I hear a lot about the energies of it. The form, et cetera. Is there any stillness work. Is there any, uh, is stillness sacred. Is there, is there a "meditative" quote/unquote tradition, or...
One of the most puzzling things about psychedelic drugs is, trying to teach people how to invoke the modality. People have the attitude toward drugs, if you take them they will work. And this not true at all, especially with drugs where a modality like Mind is what you're attempting to conjure. So that, you know, uh, a drug will potentiate you for a vision state, but number of other things have to be present: energy and stillness being, I think, the two most important ones. And then, a third factor which is, uh, the invocation. You must invoke it in some way. And it's hard to explain what that is. It's sort of like, you know, it, it, the difference between being alone and with someone. You, though you are alone taking the drug, you have to assume the I-Thou tension [phone ringing] and then you will discover the Thou on the other end of the equation. [Yes?] And so the stilling will allow this, and if, it's almost uh [Uh..can you call me after three? I have a meeting] ...sensory deprivation [Thank you.] is what's required. Not in the formal sense of [phone hangs up] a tank or anything like that. But you must sit still in darkness. And you must look at your closed eyelids with the expectation of seeing something. And then you will.
Within the cultural spoken discipline about mental stillness and the importance of that, or talking about the, the drugs or plants in terms that that would be a positive thing or...I'm just curious.
I think that the context is isolation. That's what they would say about this. They say, "Well we go into isolation. We put ourselves away. We put ourselves into a tree, or a cu, a cold hut, or something like that. And do not move around a lot."
I see that [inaudible]....
...and he wrote a couple of papers I have copied....
...Yes he's doing very interesting work in this all of this.
It's in German.
entertainment. Whichthen bifurcated...in us.
End session @
Original Transcription by: JohnDeeIsMe
Review 1 by: